That was a very interesting video clip Riley. Thanks for posting.
Sea Breeze
JoinedPosts by Sea Breeze
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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36
New Light, New Light!
by BoogerMan inmore accurately known as a reversal of a long held 'truth.'.
september 2022 study watchtower - par.
14 p. 18 - "in the past, we understood jesus’ words to refer to the deeds the resurrected ones will practice after their resurrection; that is, some will come to life and practice good things while others will come to life and practice vile things.
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Sea Breeze
Yes, arwen... it is incredibly sad. The WT erroneously taught for decades that a person could self atone for their sin just by dying in Romans 6: 7. They further taught that anyone who died had already paid for their sin and could then be resurrected into paradise to play with panda bears. That is apparently all gone now.
In this chapter 6 of Romans, it talks about how when a person comes to trust Christ alone, they enter into a kind of death. "They are buried with him in baptism", "our old man (personality) is crucified with him", "reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ"
The WT changed the verse to read that he that has died is acquitted of their sin. This gives the impression that some kind of trial takes place when a person dies and he gets acquitted. This of course is nonsense because if true, it would mean that Christ died for nothing.
What Romans Ch. 6 is saying is that for those who enter into the new covenant with Christ, (the one in Mt. 26:27-28 that the WT denies to its members) they are deemed to had died vicariously with Jesus on the cross. Since, only Jesus can atone for sin, he then imputes his righteousness and right to life into the believer.
Romans 6: 7 for he that has died [with Christ on the cross] is freed from sin. - KJV
The heretical idea that a person can atone for their own sin has been the ultimate hope of JW's for decades.
If you look at the statement from this pioneer sister at the end of this video, she exclaims that "our sins are forgiven when we die". It is at the 6:12 mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqwH_USEzpU&t=133s&ab_channel=BibleReady -
36
New Light, New Light!
by BoogerMan inmore accurately known as a reversal of a long held 'truth.'.
september 2022 study watchtower - par.
14 p. 18 - "in the past, we understood jesus’ words to refer to the deeds the resurrected ones will practice after their resurrection; that is, some will come to life and practice good things while others will come to life and practice vile things.
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Sea Breeze
He uses the past tense. He speaks of those who “did good things” and those who “practiced vile things.” This indicates that these actions took place before their death. That makes sense, does it not? After all, no one will be allowed to practice vile things in the new world. The unrighteous must have practiced these vile things before their death."
This is indeed a significant change. Too bad for all those JW's and EX-JW's who committed suicide thinking that they could pay for their own sins just by dying. Do you think the GB will apologize for lying? Even in death, JW's are still getting ripped off by the Governing Body.
This JW lady killed her whole family and left a suicide note and a video stating that she was sorry for this but it was the only way she could save her family. Her thinking was obviously based on old light.
She made a video of herself saying that she was “broken” and that she didn’t want to burden her family. She left a suicide note on the dinner table, tidied up the house, texted a relative and her husband's boss, and turned over the family photos on a secretary desk.
Then, she ended it all.
“I took my husband and kids with me so they don’t have to feel my selfish act. They will sleep until Christ resurrects them,”
Too bad she couldn't hang on until the new light came along. The WT is a deadly cult.
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JW's everlasting life is only written in PENCIL!
by BoogerMan inseptember 2022 study watchtower p.16, par.7 .
"the second group consists of the great crowd of other sheep.
are their names now written in the book of life?
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Sea Breeze
Let's all rejoice in the fact that Tony Morris & Co. are already declared righteous
Exactly, that's the part they don't tell you about. They get to be sealed.... everyone else has to work for it.
But since they preach one gospel for themselves and another one for everyone else ( a message never taught by the apostles) they have a double curse waiting for them:
Galatians 1:8-9
But though* we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.They are not getting away with anything.@Simon,Scriptures paints a different picture. After 1000 years of peace, equality & justice, vast numbers of people simply will not want Jesus to rule over them. This is because they still have a sin nature, which is rebellious to God. So, God gives them what they want... freedom from himself.Because of the perfect government, the age old question of nature vs. nurture will finally be answered. -
263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Sea Breeze
@TruthBKnown
Prior to Paul appointing himself as an Apostle and breaking ways with the Jewish followers of Jesus in Jerusalem
Right off the bat we got a problem. Scripture says that the other apostles accepted Paul as an apostle, they "added nothing" to his teachings, and they "gave him the right had of fellowship".
Galatians 2
Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, ...
7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)
9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Scripture says they were all preaching the same message and were in agreement. Peter, James and John, the big three gave him their blessing and "added nothing to my message" - Gal. 2: 6 NIV
Jehovah's Witnesses are obsessed with the earliest form worship that the followers of Jesus had. They were basically practicing Jews who also accepted Jesus' teachings. They still celebrated the Jewish festivals and went to the temple. That is why they were hated by the Sadducees, and Pharisees. It was their job to keep Judaism pure and free from non-Judaic religious belief or practice. Jehovah's Witnesses are an offshoot of that early, brief period that existed shortly after Jesus death.
I tend to agree with this. I would probably state it a little differently. JW's are obsessed with living in the prior dispensation (age of law) and the future dispensation (Millennium age) and do not live in the age we are now in... the age of grace.
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Sea Breeze
Yes SB "you can say" but the bible doesn't say and we know what says in the bible about those who adds words to it.
GB - What on earth are you talking about? The scriptures cited (the ones you ignored) form the basis of why we can say that God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS THAT HE DID!The Bible indicates that all three Persons of the Trinity were involved in Jesus’ resurrection. Galatians 1:1 says that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. First Peter 3:18 says that the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (see also Romans 1:4, and note that Romans 8:11 clearly says that God will resurrect believers “through His Spirit”). And in John 2:19 Jesus predicts that He will raise Himself from the dead (see also John 10:18). So, when we answer the question of who resurrected Jesus, we can say God did.
the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. - Acts 3: 15
So scripture says that :
1. Jesus claimed that he would raise himself from the dead
2. The Father would raise Jesus from the dead
3. The Spirit would raise Jesus and believers from the dead
4. God raised Jesus from the dead.
So which one did it? The answer is yes.
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Sea Breeze
Jesus is only a fellow creature.
@Fisherman - That is simply a lie. I can't help but to be so blunt sometimes. But, it is a WT lie.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1: 3
Jesus is the Creator of everything ever created.
Here's some more scriptures for you to consider - Jesus is called the EVERLASTING FATHER in Is. 9:6
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”
And....
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Revelation 1:8)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Revelation 22:13)
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he (Jesus) laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: (Revelation 1:17)
Even his enemies (hostile testimony) hated him for what he claimed:
The Jews answered Him, “We are not stoning You for a good work, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, claim to be God.” - John 10:33
Micah 5: 2 states that Jesus, the future King of Israel had no beginning:
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Jesus is uncreated according to Scripture. Can you see how before the WT came along, that people would think this just by reading scripture?
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263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Sea Breeze
I’m interested in what the New Testament says for its own sake. Having considered it a lot, I have come to the view that Jesus himself would have been astounded that others equated him with God.
SBF, I couldn't help but notice that you did not provide any scriptural references to support your "view".
His earliest followers viewed him as a messenger from God
Sure, like is own brothers who didn't believe him "early" on? (John 7: 5)
Why would you identify with people "early" in Jesus ministry and not those "later" in his ministry that witnessed his resurrection and viewed him as God?
"And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
The Bible indicates that all three Persons of the Trinity were involved in Jesus’ resurrection. Galatians 1:1 says that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. First Peter 3:18 says that the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead (see also Romans 1:4, and note that Romans 8:11 clearly says that God will resurrect believers “through His Spirit”). And in John 2:19 Jesus predicts that He will raise Himself from the dead (see also John 10:18). So, when we answer the question of who resurrected Jesus, we can say God did. And by that we can mean it was the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
This has been bedrock Christian doctrine for 2000 years. Would you like to see references from the "early" church leaders, some personally trained by the apostles who often spoke of Jesus as God. I've got plenty of those references too.
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36
New Light, New Light!
by BoogerMan inmore accurately known as a reversal of a long held 'truth.'.
september 2022 study watchtower - par.
14 p. 18 - "in the past, we understood jesus’ words to refer to the deeds the resurrected ones will practice after their resurrection; that is, some will come to life and practice good things while others will come to life and practice vile things.
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Sea Breeze
More Lies from the pits of Hell. My bible says that believers NOW enjoy the condition of Never being condemned:
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. - Romans 8: 1
The reason is that church-age believers are considered to have died a substitutionary death with Jesus at the Cross. "he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him"
Romans 6
v. 4 "we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.".
v. 11 - Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
v. 7 - For he that is dead is freed from sin. (not acquitted as the NWT reads) It is a spiritual death, not a physical one.
When a person becomes a believer in Christ alone and his substitutionary sacrifice on his behalf, he receives a new spirit. This new spirit is really you, it denotes personhood.
This new spirit cannot sin. You can still sin as a believer in the flesh. But scriptures says that if you walk in the spirit you will commit no sin at all.
Yet, believers will be judged, just not for their salvation. It is called the Bema seat judgement, or Judgement Seat of Christ. So, according to Hebrews 9: 27 all people will be judged after they die, but not at the same place. For the believer, he cannot be tried twice for he same crimes... Jesus having died in his place for all of his sins. The believers judgement will be for rewards... or "crowns" for what they have done for Christ during the age of grace or church age. A person's salvation is not in jeopardy here.
There are 5 judgements as this 100 year old chart explains the historical Christian view: -
263
What Name Does the New Testament Emphasize - Jehovah or Jesus?
by Vanderhoven7 init seems to me scripturally speaking, that jehovah's witnesses are emphasizing the wrong name.. it should be jesus, not jehovah.
who is the way, the truth and the life?
(john 14:6).
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Sea Breeze
@ GodBeliever
When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will also
be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all."
1 Corinthians 15:20-28Christians are not disputing the fact that Jesus will one day subject himself to the Father. The reason that you feel compelled to cite verses like this is because a template has been installed in your head by your WT trainers. Like a trained seal you and every other JW continually try to frame this topic as an either or scenario. But, it is not an either or scenario, it is a both scenario. Regardless of the countless times that the Bible and Christians present a portrait of Jesus as BOTH God and Man, JW's are trained to ignore this and just keep on arguing a point that no Christian has a problem with.
Allow me to explain to you the biblical and Christian view.
Jesus, the son of Mary is just as human as you or I. As such, God is obviously greater than he is. If the body is all there is to Jesus, then that would be the end of the discussion. Jesus is not God - and the bible contradicts itself.
However the WT has taught a view that is foreign to not only the bible, but ancient peoples themselves. It is a heresy.... a very important one.
God has explained how we are made. We are constituted of three parts - soul body & spirit.
The bible writers assume that the reader understands that fact. The view that we are only a body and that the soul is just our bad breath and your spirit is simply electricity - is a belief that is found in the modern worldview of Materialistic Naturalism, not the bible. Several false philosophies of the 18th and 19th centuries laid the groundwork in which Materialism could later take root and grow. The WT bought into this.
The WT is a hybrid worldview. While believing in a First Cause, they deny that we ourselves are anything other than a body when it comes to personhood.. Yet God says that, like him, we are a tri-partite being:
1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.In language, personal pronouns denote personhood. He, she, I, they, etc. The bible assumes that the reader understands this 3rd grade grammar. For example:
Rev. 6 - I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
See all the personal pronouns? They are disembodied PERSONS who can think, speak, remember, complain and be comforted.
The bible is full of examples like this:
1Co_5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
Isaiah 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early
I have many more biblical examples of the personhood of the the soul and spirit if you would like to see them. These should suffice to show that in the bible your body, soul and spirit are all characterized as YOU, AND NOT AN IT like the WT tries to present.
This understanding very quickly clears up the supposed mystery. Jesus' body is the son of Mary, making him fully man. The spirit of Jesus was supplied by God himself. "God is a spirit". God is indivisible being omnipresent So, Jesus is fully God as well.
This is why the bible calls him God's only-begotten (begotten means out of his essence) son. Angels were created but Jesus came out from the essence of the Father. This was a onetime, single solitary never-to-be-repeated event for all eternity.
The bible teaches that Jesus is both God and Man at the same time. This is why Jesus (physical son of Mary) could say that the Father is greater than I am, and later proclaim that he possessed ALL POWER IN HEAVEN AND EARTH.
This chart illustrates how Jesus is both fully Man and fully God:
Understand Now?
